Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

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tepples
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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by tepples » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:18 pm

All the logic in the world won't save you if your premises are false. An argument using good logic and bad premises is valid but not sound.

psycopathicteen
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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by psycopathicteen » Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:37 pm

ccovell wrote:I missed the backstory, but the whole point of "logic" is that it can be independently verifiable using the same (old and established) rules for everyone, increasing the chances that a statement is true as more unconnected people test it.

Did I miss something? Or are you bristling at someone's logical conclusions?
I feel like "logic" is a moving goal post. In order to back up a statement you must:

-Be very good at writing essays.
-Point out the obvious a lot
-Cite hundreds of sources
-Remember every detail from every website you've ever read ever
-Be a robot

93143
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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by 93143 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:35 pm

I had a guy once tell me that cow's milk couldn't possibly be good for humans, because it was for calves. I pressed him for more detailed reasoning, and "It's only logical!" was literally all he could say.

Kinda bugged me, but oh well...

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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by ccovell » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:32 am

tepples wrote:All the logic in the world won't save you if your premises are false. An argument using good logic and bad premises is valid but not sound.
True, true. That is also part of the verification process: do we agree on all the premises before hearing an argument.

You don't have to be a savant with an encyclopedic memory; just be culturally & scientifically up-to-date. And pursue knowledge rather than ignorance.

Also, you can train your senses for bullshit, which is an important part of logical self-defence, too.

For example, that cow's milk argument, that 93143 mentioned, was uttered by an obvious idiot (who probably has a clouded mind).

Cow's milk being, or not being, good for humans should stay close to arguments about the composition, chemicals, toxicity of milk, since the argument depends on the meaning of "good" = healthful in this case.

However, saying that it's "for" calves goes off the rails into implications of intentionality, as though there is a god-given list of rules for what living organisms can and cannot, or should not consume. Heck, you can eat earthworms if you like, and get nutrients from them, too. Even if they are "for" fish. :)

This bullshit in a person's argument (or train of thought) should be easy to spot, but I guess it takes practice.

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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by Oziphantom » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:53 am

This is the Blast Processing crap? How to put a MD fool in their place.

Mayhem In Monsterland is on a Commodore 64 which is 8bits and runs at 1Mhz and it scrolls half as fast as Sonic - 8pf. Truth be told it could do 16pf just that is unplayable for the game and kind of pointless. So the fact the MD does it nothing special, 2x a C64 for a 16bit 7Mhz processor is kind of lame. TBF MIM is only horizontal and not 8 way, however give a C64 a cart and Sonic speeds in 8 way full colour can be reached. Which is fair as the MD has carts too.

So a SNES with Cart at 2.8 easy 3.5 oddly just as easy ;)


Are the 68K vs 65816 argument conclusions in a clock for clock regard or 8 vs 3.5Mhz? I would expect at clock for clock the 65816 would punch the 68K pretty hard in most cases. Like a 6502 does a Z80 at same clock.

Unirally was awesome, lots of fun. The simple graphics were needed so you brain could process and anticipate what was next. Putting more complicated graphics would have just distracted and weaken the game in my option. And then the soundtrack....
Never new about the pixar things, always did wonder why no sequel.

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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by FrankenGraphics » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:25 am

I think the cow's milk argument ultimately comes down to some medicinal reports that are often repeated in newspapers and magazines referring to this or that study, but that guy didn't know them/cared to remember them.

Overall they can be distilled to:

-Countries with a "milk culture"/higher average milk intake also have more cases of sclerosis
-Most people around the world are allergic to the lactose found in cow's milk. It is assumed you can maintain a tolerance by drinking it since childhood. Many still acquire this allergy over time, even if they've been brought up on cow's milk.
-Overconsumption is cancergenous (as is overconsumption of a lot of foodstuffs)
-There's some ties (of an importance unknown to me) to diabetes
-and to higher cholesterol levels, too.

Sclerosis seems to be the widest relation. Also, what defines over-consumption? Those details rarely pass the media filter. In the sclerosis case you can at least put a rough line between having a glass of milk for lunch and maybe dinner for a good part of your life, and having a few drops in your coffee, i think?
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Sumez
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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by Sumez » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:39 am

Oziphantom wrote:always did wonder why no sequel.
DMA Design happened to release a new series a few years later which would turn out to be a pretty big cash cow, unfortunately.

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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by cpow » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:23 am

You obviously weren't blessed with an uncle with a perpetual motion machine proposal in his trunk.
I wonder if he ever did make it to DC.
Probably not. Logic!
Logic leads you to the conclusion that everyone and everything, even the everything that is nothing, will not exist in a 10^100 years.
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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by Bregalad » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:16 am

Mayhem In Monsterland is on a Commodore 64 which is 8bits and runs at 1Mhz and it scrolls half as fast as Sonic - 8pf.
The very idea to use scrolling speed as a measurement of "CPU power" is utter nonsense and goes against any kind of logic.

As for the milk debate, yes the logic is fallacious. Because cow milk is harmless for cows does not mean it is harmful for humans - or that it isn't for that matter - it just proves nothing. And I guess we all agree that industrially exploit human milk would be... a weird idea at lest.

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Sumez
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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by Sumez » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:51 am

Not any more than doing it with cows, but that's a completely different discussion I guess :P

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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by FrankenGraphics » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:58 am

You know something is awfully wrong when they manage to keep the price for a litre of milk just below the price for the same of mundane bottled water...
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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by dougeff » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:59 am

psycopathicteen, if you want to show off the capabilities of the SNES, I think you should work on your game.


The fact that there is more Genesis/Megadrive homebrew than SNES homebrew is a problem that we should all work to correct.

Also, it was the graphics (color and mode 7) and music that made SNES games stand out. Don't focus so much on processing speed.
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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by tepples » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:10 am

Bregalad wrote:The very idea to use scrolling speed as a measurement of "CPU power" is utter nonsense and goes against any kind of logic.
I try to reverse engineer this argument, and I end up with two plausible premises:

I. It takes time to decode each column of a map.
II. It takes time to copy the decoded column to video memory.

More CPU speed benefits I. So does more ROM, which allows the developer to tilt the time-space tradeoff of map compression toward less time and more space. So does more RAM, which allows the engine to do more of the decoding in advance. More CPU speed or suitably flexible DMA benefits II. If you disagree, I'm willing to revise these premises.

Map decoding in my experience doesn't involve a lot of multiplication or division other than by powers of two. This means the 68000 in the Genesis is on par with the S-CPU. In turn, I'd estimate the S-CPU is about three times as fast as the NES CPU, with a faster clock and 16-bit indexing.

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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by adam_smasher » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:39 am

I mean, I broadly agree with Bregalad here, scroll speed is a dumb metric.

But FWIW, tepples, it's not just the raw map data: there's plenty of bookkeeping that moving through a game world entails - loading and unloading entities for instance, or even just more frequent collision detection and physics for the player (unless you want them to go flying through walls).

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Re: Why "logic" is bullshit (RANT)

Post by psycopathicteen » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:49 pm

tepples wrote:
Bregalad wrote:The very idea to use scrolling speed as a measurement of "CPU power" is utter nonsense and goes against any kind of logic.
I try to reverse engineer this argument, and I end up with two plausible premises:

I. It takes time to decode each column of a map.
II. It takes time to copy the decoded column to video memory.
There's also not really any performance benefit of having a max scroll speed that is less than 8 pixels per frame, because then you'd need extra code to distribute the "work load" between frames.

This is also why I don't think distributing collision across multiple frames is good way to "optimize" a game. It probably adds too much extra overhead sorting all these collisions.

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