Forever DUO 852 Games of NES (405+447)
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- krzysiobal
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Forever DUO 852 Games of NES (405+447)
I spotted accidentally this PCB. Price on aliexpress is ~19$ for 60pin and 24.5$ for 72pin version. First time see that Chinese distribute universal PCB using general use CPLD chip, not blob or ASIC.
Could be nice for adopting as repro donor (instead of canibalizing existing original cartridges).
Board markings: FC-01C DT:1810
Features:
* 240 Cells programmable CPLD EPM240 - enough capacity for example for MMC3+MMC1+few other chips at once, or almost any single mapper (except MMC5/JY Company)
* 128 MB (Mehabyte!) PRG-ROM onboard
* Battery backed 8kB PRG-RAM, disabled when voltage falls
* 128 kB CHR-RAM
Pros:
+ External header available for connecting JTAG programmer to reprogram CPLD
+ Nice & small layout, fits shell with either clips on both sides or single bolt in center
+ Whole PPU address bus (A0..A13) wired to CPLD so can emulate even MMC2/MMC4
Cons:
- every chip is powered from +3.6V but no voltage translation on data/address pins
- Only 128kB of CHR-RAM
- PRG-ROMS's /WE connected to +3.6V so can't be reprogrammed with Kazzo without rewiring
- Only CPU-A0,A1,A8-14 routed to CPLD, so not every mapper can be emulated
Could be nice for adopting as repro donor (instead of canibalizing existing original cartridges).
Board markings: FC-01C DT:1810
Features:
* 240 Cells programmable CPLD EPM240 - enough capacity for example for MMC3+MMC1+few other chips at once, or almost any single mapper (except MMC5/JY Company)
* 128 MB (Mehabyte!) PRG-ROM onboard
* Battery backed 8kB PRG-RAM, disabled when voltage falls
* 128 kB CHR-RAM
Pros:
+ External header available for connecting JTAG programmer to reprogram CPLD
+ Nice & small layout, fits shell with either clips on both sides or single bolt in center
+ Whole PPU address bus (A0..A13) wired to CPLD so can emulate even MMC2/MMC4
Cons:
- every chip is powered from +3.6V but no voltage translation on data/address pins
- Only 128kB of CHR-RAM
- PRG-ROMS's /WE connected to +3.6V so can't be reprogrammed with Kazzo without rewiring
- Only CPU-A0,A1,A8-14 routed to CPLD, so not every mapper can be emulated
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- Posts: 1510
- Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 11:30 am
Re: Forever DUO 852 Games of NES (405+447)
Does the menu actually reprogram the CPLD for each game mapper, or is it just programmed to run some kind of universal mapper, maybe even just enhanced MMC3, for which all games are modified?
Re: Forever DUO 852 Games of NES (405+447)
oops, this post has gone 4 ever, sorry 4 that
Last edited by aquasnake on Sat Jan 27, 2024 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Forever DUO 852 Games of NES (405+447)
4 Nin Uchi Mahjong (first pic screenshot) is MMC5, so that board possibly emulates MMC5 - unless its a hack to a different mapper. (or miss-titled game)
EDIT: oops, I confused this with "Shin 4-nin Uchi Mahjong", disregard
EDIT: oops, I confused this with "Shin 4-nin Uchi Mahjong", disregard
Last edited by dink on Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Forever DUO 852 Games of NES (405+447)
Not to be confused with Shin 4-nin Uchi Mahjong, which is indeed MMC5.
- krzysiobal
- Posts: 1037
- Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:06 pm
- Location: Poland
- Contact:
Re: Forever DUO 852 Games of NES (405+447)
It is programmed to emulate fixed universal mapper. It is not suitable for reprogramming after each game selection, because:NewRisingSun wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:52 am Does the menu actually reprogram the CPLD for each game mapper, or is it just programmed to run some kind of universal mapper, maybe even just enhanced MMC3, for which all games are modified?
* According to datasheet, this chip can withstand up to 100 erase and reprogram cycles (which in my opinion is a little lowered, because the first flash-cartridge I built based on this chip was reprogrammed more that that and still works fine),
* That needs interfering the JTAG pins, which are here not tied to anything except the pin header
* During programming, this chip is not functioning (all its input/outputs) are in high impedance state, so there would be need of other "supervisory" chip (althought there is something called real-time ISP which can be wisely used to overcome this)
Here is dump of the $8000-$ffff of this ROM. Menu code writes:
Code: Select all
CPU W A3 5700
CPU W 0C A000
CPU W 00 B000
CPU W 00 C000
CPU W 01 D000
CPU W 01 E000
CPU W 01 F000
...
JSR B000
Cartridge contains the NROM game.
Re: Forever DUO 852 Games of NES (405+447)
Oops, my bad - I confused 4 Nin Uuchi with Shin 4 Nin Uuchi
Re: Forever DUO 852 Games of NES (405+447)
100 cycles is the maximum number for which the chip is still guaranteed to retain data for the full rated number of years and across the full temperature and voltage range.krzysiobal wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:31 am * According to datasheet, this chip can withstand up to 100 erase and reprogram cycles (which in my opinion is a little lowered, because the first flash-cartridge I built based on this chip was reprogrammed more that that and still works fine),
Some years ago, someone sold a bunch of kits to intentionally wear out a small serial EEPROM. Subsequent reports showed that these EEPROMs did not start generating programming errors until 11 to 14 times as many writes as the EEPROM was rated for.
Re: Forever DUO 852 Games of NES (405+447)
I did a similar experiment in a way. I have a laptop battery where some of the cells went bad and the controller chip, made by TI, has latched a "permanent failure" mode after detecting the bad cells. The datasheet says the mode is stored in flash memory and there is no possible way to come back out from that mode, due to the access to that function being restricted when the "seal" command was presumably sent at the factory. It also says that the data retention of the flash is 10 years. Based on characteristics of flash memory I found online, it appeared that elevated temperatures should drastically reduce data retention time. So I removed the controller chip and taped it to a lightbulb from an old microwave, along with a thermocouple. I measured temperature at just over 100 deg C. I left this lightbulb on for about 4 months, really cooked it good. Hard to solder again after that but putting it all back together with good cells, the chip had not forgotten its permanent failure mode after this. I have no reason to believe that I retriggered the failure mode. The flash is just much more resilient than the minimum that they promise.lidnariq wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:17 am 100 cycles is the maximum number for which the chip is still guaranteed to retain data for the full rated number of years and across the full temperature and voltage range.
Some years ago, someone sold a bunch of kits to intentionally wear out a small serial EEPROM. Subsequent reports showed that these EEPROMs did not start generating programming errors until 11 to 14 times as many writes as the EEPROM was rated for.
Re: Forever DUO 852 Games of NES (405+447)
Flash memory manufacturers' underpromising and overdelivering on wear resilience reminds me of Nintendo products' reputation for being "Tonka tough." Game Boy systems literally go through the war and still work.
(Except for Nintendo DS shoulder buttons and hinges, that is.)
(Except for Nintendo DS shoulder buttons and hinges, that is.)
Re: Forever DUO 852 Games of NES (405+447)
This board was discussed some time ago on emu-land http://www.emu-land.net/forum/index.php ... msg1428464
Scheme was changed to work with Cluster's dumper and ROM builder. Also some mapper kits are available.
Scheme was changed to work with Cluster's dumper and ROM builder. Also some mapper kits are available.
Re: Forever DUO 852 Games of NES (405+447)
oops, this post has gone 4 ever, sorry 4 that
Last edited by aquasnake on Sat Jan 27, 2024 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Posts: 1510
- Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 11:30 am
Re: Forever DUO 852 Games of NES (405+447)
What does that mean? Is Forever DUO 852 Games of NES a Coolgirl cartridge, then? Because the bank register writes do not look like it.pakosup wrote:Scheme was changed to work with Cluster's dumper and ROM builder. Also some mapper kits are available.
Re: Forever DUO 852 Games of NES (405+447)
No, but it can be modified (new wiring and updating FPGA program) to use ROMs that created in Coolgirl ROM builder.NewRisingSun wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:52 am What does that mean? Is Forever DUO 852 Games of NES a Coolgirl cartridge, then? Because the bank register writes do not look like it.
FPGA is cheaper so only few mappers are available at once.