NES 2.0 Additions Proposal

Discuss emulation of the Nintendo Entertainment System and Famicom.

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NewRisingSun
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Re: NES 2.0 Additions Proposal

Post by NewRisingSun » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:00 pm

Kaiketsu Yanchamaru is in the list as "undetermined". Super Chinese 2 does query the microphone, but the code is too convoluted for hvcmic to identify.

NewRisingSun
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Re: NES 2.0 Additions Proposal

Post by NewRisingSun » Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:16 pm

Two recently-released famiclone built-in ROMs (Thumbs-Up 240-in-1 Mini Arcade Machine, Polaroid Megamax GPD001SDG, available at the "usual place") use an encryption scheme that simply swaps bits 5 and 6, but only of CPU opcode bytes, and are otherwise identical to the normal VTxx console types. I tentatively denoted mapper 256 submapper 15 in the released ROM images to indicate this, given it was likely used for the same purpose as the other submappers of mapper 256. But I am not sure that is the right spot to do it, given that it has nothing to do per se with what a mapper normally does. But I am also hesitant to use any other header bits to denote something that is really idiosyncratic to a particular type of famiclone. Any ideas or opinions?

lidnariq
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Re: NES 2.0 Additions Proposal

Post by lidnariq » Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:29 pm

On one hand, it is a unique CPU, and arguably should be in the Extended Console Type.

On the other hand, every VRTech console except the VT01 makes no distinction between memory mapper, CPU, and PPU anyway, so in these situations the two fields are really redundant anyway, and shoving this craziness into a submapper makes it easier for emulator authors to quarantine the crazy.

NewRisingSun
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Re: NES 2.0 Additions Proposal

Post by NewRisingSun » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:39 am

Okay! I have now added this encryption type to mapper 256's submapper table.

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tokumaru
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Re: NES 2.0 Additions Proposal

Post by tokumaru » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:49 pm

I've noticed that the wiki page for NES 2.0 got an overhaul... I'm not sure if the new format is an improvement over what we had before, but regardless of opinion, I'd like to report that some of the ASCII diagrams are busted (the first 2 for sure), as the lines aren't correctly connecting some bits to their descriptions.

lidnariq
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Re: NES 2.0 Additions Proposal

Post by lidnariq » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:01 pm

The diagrams are literally just ASCII and spaces with no tabs in a monospaced font. I don't see how this could go wrong, but a picture of what you see would help us figure out if there's anything we can do to fix it.

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tokumaru
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Re: NES 2.0 Additions Proposal

Post by tokumaru » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:10 pm

Here's what looks wrong to me:
wiki-ascii-diagrams.png

lidnariq
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Re: NES 2.0 Additions Proposal

Post by lidnariq » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:13 pm

Oh, huh. Those are actually typos. Fixed.

NewRisingSun
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Re: NES 2.0 Additions Proposal

Post by NewRisingSun » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:23 am

tokumaru wrote:I'm not sure if the new format is an improvement over what we had before
It's always nice to see the appreciation one gets here for one's work. Maybe I should re-add some of the better parts of the old page, such as the rant about battery-backing the "stupid CHR RAM" and which cartridges are "monstrosities"? :P

Anyway, thank-you for pointing out the typos.

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tokumaru
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Re: NES 2.0 Additions Proposal

Post by tokumaru » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:33 am

Sorry if I sounded ungrateful or something, it's just that I felt slightly disoriented when I went to look something up and found a completely different page. And without comparing them side by side I couldn't really tell what has improved and what hasn't. I do appreciate the effort to make the wiki better, so sorry if I sounded mean.

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B00daW
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Re: NES 2.0 Additions Proposal

Post by B00daW » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:40 am

Didn't see in the Wiki that the Famicom Network System (Modem) controller is added to "Default Expansion Device". Guess we could add it preemptively as "$2F" as Ben Boldt figures all this stuff out?
Image

Pokun
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Re: NES 2.0 Additions Proposal

Post by Pokun » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:16 pm

rainwarrior wrote:
tepples wrote:An emulator running on Nintendo DS might emulate the microphone with the actual microphone. Compare Mario Kart DS battle mode, which allows inflating shield balloons while in cover using Select or blowing, but blowing is faster.
I said earlier in the thread but Wii U VC actually uses the microphone to emulate the Zelda pols-voice situation. Not sure if there were ever other mic-sensitive games on VC.
Another might be the Famicom emulator in the Nintendo Switch (free download from Japanese eShop and region-free). I can confirm that the headset port does not work (or at least I couldn't get it to work) with Zelda though, so I guess you need those Famicom-style controllers that supposedly has a microphone. The 3DS VC is another possibility, I have no Famicom VC games on my 3DS though.
NewRisingSun wrote:I have taken very rough look at most of the games that hvcmic identified as mic-using candidates. "Code exists and is definitely called" means that I can set a breakpoint at the code that reads and checks the microphone bit, and will eventually find it triggered. Usually, that sets a memory location; whether the game does anything with that, or just calls that code as part of an input device library is another question. "Code exists, but unreached in tests so far" means that the code is definitely a mic-reading and checking code, but my brief encounter with that game has not reached a point where that code was ever called. It may be called at some point in the game, or it maybe unreachable code as part of an input device library. "False alert" means that it's obvious that it cannot be mic-reading code. "Undetermined" means that I have not yet taken a closer look.

If we can create a perfect list based on analyzing this rather limited list of games, then we can add a field value for Mic. I will not do such an analysis all alone on my own, however.
Thanks for your hard work! There are many new games to the list I didn't know about. I don't see one of the most famous examples, Hikaru Shinwa: Paluthena no Kagami, in there and I have never found the code searching the disk image manually either. I'm starting to doubt that the game actually supports the mic as I have never gotten it to work nor have I seen proof of it working. I'd love to be proven wrong though.

NewRisingSun
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Re: NES 2.0 Additions Proposal

Post by NewRisingSun » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:26 pm

Pokun wrote:I don't see one of the most famous examples, Hikaru Shinwa: Paluthena no Kagami, in there
In the context of NES 2.0 headers, I only looked at cartridge games, and Parthena no Kagami is a Disk-System-only game. (The U.S. version, Kid Icarus, which was released on cartridge, does not use the microphone.)
Pokun wrote:I'm starting to doubt that the game actually supports the mic as I have never gotten it to work nor have I seen proof of it working.
At any general store (i.e. one where you are greeted with イラッシャイマセ ナンデモヤデス, not where you are greeted with ドヤ イッペン コウテミヤヘンケ), blow into the microphone while holding the A button on the second controller to raise or lower the prices.

Pokun
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Re: NES 2.0 Additions Proposal

Post by Pokun » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:00 am

Oh I see, so the entire FDS library is still unchecked.

OK I just tried haggling in Mesen and now it does indeed work right away. I used the TOSEC dumped disk and Mesen, I guess I must have used a bad dump before (the No-intro dump is known to be bad), and for real hardware I guess it's just my mic that is bad (although it is good enough for other games like Zelda).

Great Hierophant
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Re: NES 2.0 Additions Proposal

Post by Great Hierophant » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:15 pm

I know you had already figured it out, but I did post visual proof of the microphone working to haggle the shopkeeper down on original hardware several years ago : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF_TynJ-c6w

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