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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:55 pm 
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tokumaru wrote:
DocWaluigean wrote:
I'm even willing to make a tutorial that's more comprehend-able than BunnyBoy if I understand everything.

You'd be surprised by how many people have said that, but either "forgot" or just gave up on NES development.

It's not easy to word this stuff in simpler terms, because this really isn't a simple subject. You can't replace terms like registers, mirroring, addressing, etc. by simpler ones because they describe unique things and behaviors that don't necessarily have counterparts that are easier to comprehend. We can EXPLAIN all the terms and behaviors individually so that when you see them at a later time they won't sound like alien concepts, but programming knowledge is something you build progressively, you have to understand one layer before moving on to the next, you can't skip to the topmost layer and expect things to be worded in a way that circumvents everything established in the layers below.


As sadly as I have to agree on the term, there is a form of ambitions in certain people that made them attempt to do those kinds. For many people on "forgot" or just gave up, they didn't find motivations or ambitions, since "it's a waste of time to make tutorial for a dead old program" beliefs or other things.
For me, I have big one, that every time I felt quitting, I only went to sleep to calm myself down, because I feel upset so much for a while since no tutor or any road is there for me. I waited time to try again, and try to explain much differently. The road I always get stuck is 6502 Processor Overview in Week 3.

As I'm predicting you hear this term also, I'm not like any people who have said those kinds. I find much more values in NES programming than before more and more, especially NIKI homebrew games, Mario Adventure 3: Mushroom Mayhem, yet I often struggles with coding without forms of learning styles like mnemonics. It's odd that I understand partially in BASIC, Java[Script], and C#, yet I struggle the most in 6502, even though I feel it's one of hard-to-learn coding languages and it's obvious.

There's a learning styles called VARK where it shows some kind of learning styles for people who learns best of: Visual, Aural, Read/Write, and Kinesthetic. For me, it's possible for, at most, all 4 of it.

Maybe I can't explain well or get you guys to understand where I come from because despite my native tongue is Spanish, I use English majority of my life, and I can't use grammar terms correctly many times. But I can tell ya, I'm a fast learner when I understand something, I really strive for good qualities on something.

As I know tutor is highly discourages or not possible much here because "they have lives" or "they do it for money for teaching", I want to let ya know I'm serious on tutoring, and I'm willing to record and understand details by details to make NES tutorials so good, even children can learn more than what they could do in NESMaker.
It just a good communications between student and tutors for support is really needed to help me understand as "God-Tier" as Shiru, NIKI, and DahrkDaiz, who got me into this homebrew business in the first place.

If you feel I'm not even trying. despite the fact that to other eyes, I may be another person who doesn't care or gives up easily:

-I understood completely with basics of Binary, HEX, and decimals/ natural numbers.
-I understood that the address $ is like a room where you place the codes, and certain "rooms" inside does specific jobs, like the sprite-color decision "room."
-I at least know what Mapper does in certain types, from increasing tile size, to the abilities of making beautiful music using N106.
-INC means increment, which is mathematical technique in increasing number by 1, unless stated.
-I understood that graphic limit is set to 13 colors, with one transparent for each "4" colors, which is 3 colors and 1 transparent, and the screen is 256 X 240, but issues in vertical lines is 256 X 224
and other things about 8X8, 16X16 Sprite limit, where vertical mirror is possible, but not horizontal mirror.
- $ and # symbol is different, where $ is the address, and # is the number-number.
-I somewhat partially understood that A, X, Y is a type of register that "allows you to store numbers [Address? Digits/HEX?] temporary" like forms of transport from one address to another, OR some kind of math abilities that allows you to carry the number using "LDA" and "STA" stuff.
-I partially understood about high-power and low-power byte like what they said on Nerdy Night Week 4:

Code:
The palettes start at PPU address $3F00 and $3F10. To set this address, PPU address port $2006 is used. This port must be written twice, once for the high byte then for the low byte:

  LDA $2002    ; read PPU status to reset the high/low latch to high
  LDA #$3F
  STA $2006    ; write the high byte of $3F10 address
  LDA #$10
  STA $2006    ; write the low byte of $3F10 address



If I understand the code from BASIC languages with certain opcodes on what it does, like DEC and INC, the same way with the C# programming beginners where they did the "Application > NameSpace > Assembly > Codes", then I have compatibility to understand 6502 languages, but I tend to struggle with certain information that doesn't comprehend to me because it isn't explain well for me, or because, dare I say it, "It's boring to try and read it and remember it."

I just want to put this down just to tell ya what kind of person I am. You could think I'm "autistic moron" or anything like that, or anything that people who has elitist personality could put me down, but I just want to let ya know I'm really trying hard to figure out on codes yet struggle on obstacles, and I'm serious and determined to learn, that I'm willing to be perfect attendances for tutors. Discord, other ways, I'm in.

Even though I know it's high chance that response is very obvious that no tutors is here, or potentially discourages to try to tutor. If there isn't any forms of tutor that can help me learn in very well styles that I could rival Shiru and/or DahrkDaiz in terms of creative codes, I might as well ask so many ridiculous questions on something that's potentially easy here like I did.

It's getting late here atm. So I hope I don't make any errors to explain.

EDIT: I don't ever want anyone, young or old, to go through struggles what I gone through that gives up easily.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:05 pm 
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I haven't been following this thread closely, but it's not like us to call anyone a moron or anything of the kind. We're always willing to help those who demonstrate they're making progress. What nobody here likes is when we do our best to explain something to someone, taking time from other things we could be doing for ourselves (e.g. working on our own projects, spending time with our families, etc.), and the person's reply makes it clear they didn't even read it all.

What we don't like is when people try to take shortcuts. There are no shortcuts... quite the opposite, really! If you're reading a post or a document, and all the information is flying over your head, you don't just skip and go "yeah, this is not working for me, let's see what's next". You can't go forward if you don't understand what came before. You have to keep reading, over and over until something makes sense. Once something makes sense, read again and more things will make sense.

We're here to help, we can explain things in a different way, we just don't have the time to rewrite every document and tutorial so they're perfect for everyone, and we don't have time to private tutor each person that comes to the forum saying that the information that currently exists is not in line with their favorite way of studying.

Coding games is not an easy task, you'll have to adapt and overcome several hardships, so consider this the first of many problems to overcome. You'll have to adapt and make do with the documentation that exists, because no one will rewrite it all overnight. We'll be here to help when things don't make sense.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:25 pm 
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tokumaru wrote:
I haven't been following this thread closely, but it's not like us to call anyone a moron or anything of the kind. We're always willing to help those who demonstrate they're making progress. What nobody here likes is when we do our best to explain something to someone, taking time from other things we could be doing for ourselves (e.g. working on our own projects, spending time with our families, etc.), and the person's reply makes it clear they didn't even read it all.


https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6313

I obviously know this person is acting...disrespectfully strange, but I am feeling a little offended when I think about the people calling offensive terms, where despite being on internet, and expect to be civilized, it just gives me impressions where people would just attack me if I was in similar position as him and I was trying to talk what I want to say, like uncomfortable term koitsu gave me, just because I tried to get straight-of-straight information instead of reusing the same answers everyone gets; bunnyboy and Easy6502. Until I signed up, I don't feel comfortable asking for help or try to learn NES by asking. Call me or anyone autism who feel the same way, but I rather never let it be exposed on my appearances.

tokumaru wrote:
What we don't like is when people try to take shortcuts. There are no shortcuts... quite the opposite, really! If you're reading a post or a document, and all the information is flying over your head, you don't just skip and go "yeah, this is not working for me, let's see what's next". You can't go forward if you don't understand what came before. You have to keep reading, over and over until something makes sense. Once something makes sense, read again and more things will make sense.


The thing about this is when I/anyone were to read documents like "Programmanual" and come across sentences that confuses the 6502 with other reference things, it could throw off easily with certain grammar or pronunciations. The only shortcuts I can think of is using mnemonics or "cheat sheets" that tells you what the code does and copy-paste the specific code to make things faster.

Also, if I tried to re-reading in the same place, it will feel like I ain't progressing and demotivation increases as I get stuck. I'm not like average person who could easily understand it; it could take them 2 weeks at most to understand, this could take me about 8 months at most. Maybe I'm wrong or right, but the fact I'm stuck in Week 3 for many times, rarely going to Week 4 or 5, but revert back to week 3, just made me upset.

tokumaru wrote:
We're here to help, we can explain things in a different way, we just don't have the time to rewrite every document and tutorial so they're perfect for everyone, and we don't have time to private tutor each person that comes to the forum saying that the information that currently exists is not in line with their favorite way of studying.

Coding games is not an easy task, you'll have to adapt and overcome several hardships, so consider this the first of many problems to overcome. You'll have to adapt and make do with the documentation that exists, because no one will rewrite it all overnight. We'll be here to help when things don't make sense.


I'm a little unsure about this. It's either I feel I refused to accept this paragraph, or I'm trying too hard to accept and understand, that the fact I tried to learn on something I'm stuck on for long time. I could say, "Maybe I want to be the one who'll rewrite it all overnight if I get real tutor and help.", but it'll just be repeating myself and encourages frown against me.

If that's true about help, where did the "elitist" and "strict" ideologies come from...?

So what if I write to write a storyboard / script of how to learn NES 6502 programming, and I need some form of clarifications?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:42 am 
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I responded to one of your posts at 1:10 am. At 1:50 am, was my second response. That's 40 minutes to write just the second post. I also had to read your posts in order to respond. (Maybe obvious, but I feel like people often forget this.) Probably at least an hour of work went into those posts. I could have done anything else in that time.

I've helped people who post source code with basically no context, which means I have to read all their source code which usually does not take a small amount of time.

You have trouble believing some people are here to help? It's a mixed bag of personalities, sure. But that's the only way it can work. I'm not trying to guilt you too much, but I think it's worth really thinking about the collective time we all spent to create about 35 posts worth of guidance. Imagine if one person decided to do that for you, for free.

If you want a tutor without paying, well, you've got it. You've got pages of help you didn't pay for. Maybe some of it's a little tough love, but again. Really think about what you've received here already. This is extra! This is in addition to the free resources that already exist. Like that often repeated answer of easy6502. You think it's bad when we recommend easy6502 a lot? The alternative is rewriting easy6502! It's much easier to answer your questions about it than rewrite it.

What are your questions about it? Where are you stuck? These are not rhetorical questions!
Quote:
Also, if I tried to re-reading in the same place, it will feel like I ain't progressing and demotivation increases as I get stuck.

Then ask. If there's anything about my posts you don't understand. ASK! I spent the hour because I want to help. If you don't understand the help, do you really think I'd rather have you struggle in silence after already investing in you? Ask!

And the beauty of this is that if I ever start to feel drained by the time spent, there's an army of people just as knowledgeable or more knowledgeable who can fill my shoes while I recharge. Tokumaru and I were basically racing to help you first! Think about it!

I'll leave you with this: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7451&start=1290&hilit=metatile This is a 97 page thead spanning 7 years that primarily serves the purpose of helping just one person. I'll even say I've lost my patience in the thread :( , but honestly we mostly really do just want to help.

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https://kasumi.itch.io/indivisible


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:12 am 
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DocWaluigean wrote:
I'm even willing to make a tutorial that's more comprehend-able than BunnyBoy if I understand everything.


I have never read Nerdy Nights, so I might be completely wrong about this, but is it possible that it was never a particularly good tutorial to begin with? Either way, programming for the NES is not so much about programming, as it's about understanding the hardware, and it's hard for any tutorial to cover this. You need documentation if you don't want to end up with more questions than you have answers.

To be honest, I never even heard of Nerdy Nights before I had already learned what it attempts to teach. But whenever it's brought up, it's usually among newcomers who have been following it, and have a ton of questions based on it. Questions which are all answered on the Nesdev wiki, too.
As far as I'm aware, it was written quite some time ago, and doesn't really follow a lot of the standards that are usually recommended procedure (such as separating game logic from NMI), as well as relying on Nesasm, which a lot of people aren't fans of (I am not familiar with this either, but I like CA65 well enough to never move away from it).

I think a big source of the problem is that people open up the tutorial and expect to learn everything from it. It's no wonder they come out with questions. I can't imagine any tutorial being thorough enough to make you understand everything going on in a piece of video game hardware, but what do I know.

Here's what I did.
My approach might not be good for everyone, but it worked for me. I basically familiarized myself with every major aspect of the NES hardware (aside from sound generation) before picking up an assembler. That doesn't mean knowing all the ins and outs, but it meant being familiar with the concepts before eventually running into them. If you don't know what a nametable, OAM buffer or attributes are, you're not gonna get far. I browsed through all the most interesting pages of the Nesdev wiki, learning how stuff worked. This was primarily video output, but the NMI and controller reading was of course important too. I just did this here and there in my spare time, over a few days. At the point, this was my end goal, so maybe that made it easier for me, but it wasn't until I realised how basic the hardware actually was that I figured I should take it further and try making something.

Then I learned 6502 independently from the NES hardware, which was pretty much required, but also pretty simple (this guide is excellent), and finally I just downloaded a blank template of a working NES game, and mucked about in it for a few hours. :)
Those last two steps was just one evening, but depending on how familiar you are with programming in general, it can take however long you feel is necessary. And of course it took me probably another week to get something really working and playable, but at that point the thing I had made was entirely my own thing, not following somebody's tutorial. And I never had any questions, because everything I made was based on individual and well documented examples from the Nesdev Wiki. Ok, so I did have a lot of stuff that I needed to look up, but nothing that hadn't already been discussed in details, so it was pretty easy to search for older forum threads.

That said, everyone here is happy to answer questions, and like you said yourself - the only stupid question is the one that remains unasked. People don't mock people for their lack of knowledge, unless said people act like they know it all despite of it.


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